Great Circle Associates List-Managers
(August 1995)

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Subject: Re: Abuse of newsgroup space by a mailing list manager. (fwd)
From: amys @ iquest . net (Amy Stinson)
Date: Sun, 20 Aug 95 20:23 EST
To: Joe George <jgeorge @ nbi . com>
Cc: list-managers @ GreatCircle . COM

Dear Mr. George,

You said:
>Speaking as the mailing list manager in question, I feel a STRONG need to
>clear the air over the policies that we implement here at, and I
>feel the need also to question why Ms. Close seems to have such a MAJOR bug
>up her ass over this whole ordeal.

The problem is if you give others the idea that this is an acceptable way to
conduct list administration business then the newgroups will truely become

If people pay to be on one of your lists, then you should keep a database of
names, addresses, and phone numbers to be able to contact them by other
means as there is money involved.  Otherwise unsubscribe them and forget it.

If I have a user from an online service who's mail has bounced, then I
generally have a "contact" person from that service to see if they can
contact my bouncing subscribers from within the service.  If they can't,
then they are unsubscribed.  I don't sweat it.  I've actually called
subscribers when mail is bounced (even tho I don't charge for my list) to
see if I can help resolve a problem. 

>If there is no other recourse to contact these people, yes, we post a short
>message to a Usenet newsgroup with the same general emphasis as the mailing
>list in question.

Has this worked?  Or is it just a way to let off steam?

>As far as being "ostracized by our peers", perhaps a little scope should be
>placed on this policy before anyone decides to start mailbombing us.  The
>ONE SINGLE post which seems to have crawled up Ms. Close's anatomy and died
>was the FIRST AND ONLY such posting to her own pet newsgroup,

Nah, she was offended by your arrogant attitude and perhaps mystified by
your lack of being able to see the "big picture" in all this.  They probably
aren't reading newsgroups if they aren't on the service they subscribed
from.  So in essence, you are sort of airing your undies for all of us to
have to deal with, and we don't really want to put up with it.  It's bad
enough to have to deal with all of the other people who have discovered the
internet after 1 week of owning a computer, much less dealing with people
who OUGHT TO KNOW BETTER, but think they should be excused because that's
how they feel like dealing with stuff.  

After all, it's people with attitudes like yours that sometimes make the
thought of government regulation attractive.  

It's really pretty sad.  Some people seem to have their heads so far up
their own hineys that the only way they realize that their actions should be
more self-governed is to be clamped on hard.  The only way that's
effectively accomplished on the net is to wham you with so much mail that
your server ab-ends.

> I pay the bills for's hardware and net access. 

I find this comment rather interesting in that there seems to be an air of
justification in the perceived level tolerance we should have for you to
conduct business.  Is this your personal service that you've gotten that
you're paying $1000 per month for?  I don't get it, lots of us pay for
internet access and don't feel like we're any more entitled to use or abuse

I, for one, think Ms. Close's  perception of you was right on target.

Amy Stinson

 Amy Stinson *** amys @
 iquest .
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