Great Circle Associates List-Managers
(June 1998)

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Subject: Re: findmail
From: Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui @ plaidworks . com>
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 1998 17:45:38 -0700
To: Mark Rauterkus <mrauterkus @ sportsurf . net>, <List-Managers @ GreatCircle . COM>, <tneff @ panix . com>
Cc: "Scott Hassan" <hassan @ vault . findmail . com>
In-reply-to: <199806012115 . PAA24528 @ sportsurf . net>

> I'm not going out an telling you all how to run your lists, mind you.
> And, if you have reason for FindMail not subscribing to your lists --
> then fine. I do not want FindMail at all my lists and we've worked this
> out.
> I'm a little bent out of shape because there are too many lists out there
> without any archives. People tend to not want to stand by their words
> where there is no OPEN Book archive, IMHO. And, people can get the
> "wrong" impression too quickly if they are not pointed to what was said
> -- exactly -- at an independent archive site.

I'm all for archives. I've put a lot of work INTO those archives on my
sites. I'm about to spend the summer building even better ones, too.

my problem isn't with the concept of findmail. My problem is with the
implementation. Little things, like archiving myself without permission
and not announcing to anyone (including the list and content owners)
that the archives are being created. Like you said, not all of the
lists are things that ought to be archived, and by not bothering ot ask
the owners, findMail is saying they know this better than the owners do.

I find that attitude rather arrogant at best. to take the data that
someone creates by running a list, and then use it without telling them
is pretty ugly. At best. It's likely quite illegal as far as copyright
goes, but lets stick to ethics.

Now, beyond that, consider a site that uses click-through advertising
as a funding source, and as part of its system, has its own archival
system with advertising banners. Now, FindMail wanders in and starts
archiving it themselves, without telling the site they're now
archiving. Suddenly, findmail has created an alternate access point for
accessing that information, around the advertising. If the advertising
is key to keeping that site running, it could kill the entire site. And
they DO THIS WITHOUT ASKING, because they assume that the act of
signing up is enough notice.

That attitude is bogus. Imagine if someone signed up to Hotwired,
copied the pages to his own site, and started redistributing HotWired's
articles on his own web site. Same thing here.

If people WANT to use FindMail, great. If findmail wants to offer their
services, great. but when FindMail starts sneaking onto lists and doing
it without permission and without notice, then I have a real problem.
The responsibility for approving this is on the list owner, not
FindMail. As long as findmail doesn't ask first, they're a pirate site
in my eyes and will be treated as such. And if they have nothing to
hide -- why do they hide what they're doing to lists? Why do site
owners find out by accident, or after getting clued in to look on lists
like this?

Obviously, because if they do ask, they get told to go away. So they
don't ask, and play the "approval by obscurity" games. of course, when
they DO get found out, list owners tend to act like me: angry to
hostile, and treat them like thiefs, which I believe they are. And then
findmail sort of looks around and goes "Why are you angry?"

Which only proves to me either they just plain old don't have a clue
about this, or are playing dumb because it's to their advantage. Either
way, I don't care.

But if they want to offer their services, bless them. I'd say no,
because I'm offering the services myself. But for lists that don't have
archives, great. Just don't steal it without telling me and than
suggest you're doing me a favor. you aren't.

But they clearly don't understand that.

Chuq Von Rospach (Hockey fan? <>)
Apple Mail List Gnome (mailto:chuq @
 apple .
Plaidworks Consulting (mailto:chuqui @
 plaidworks .
<> + <>

  • Re: findmail
    From: Mark Rauterkus <mrauterkus @ sportsurf . net>
Indexed By Date Previous: RE: List-Managers-Digest V7 #94
From: Chuq Von Rospach <chuqui @ plaidworks . com>
Next: Re: findmail
From: Jason L Tibbitts III <tibbs @ hpc . uh . edu>
Indexed By Thread Previous: RE: findmail
From: "Tom Neff" <tneff @ panix . com>
Next: Re: findmail
From: Jason L Tibbitts III <tibbs @ hpc . uh . edu>

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