Great Circle Associates List-Managers
(August 1999)

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Subject: Useless NDRs [Was: Nondeliverable mail]
From: Jeffrey Goldberg <J . Goldberg @ Cranfield . ac . uk>
Organization: Cranfield University Computer Centre
Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 18:14:39 +0100 (BST)
To: Ken Bourbeau <bourbeau @ worldpath . net>
Cc: Postmaster <Postmaster @ msn . com>, list-managers @ GreatCircle . COM
In-reply-to: <Version . 32 . 19990821205123 . 00f6ce60 @ unix . worldpath . net>
Reply-to: Jeffrey Goldberg <J . Goldberg @ Cranfield . ac . uk>

Thank you for copying your message (quoted in its below for the benefit of
the MNS mail managers) to the list managers list

I agree that sites (such as which produce useless non-delivery
reports (or allow list unfriendly autoresponders or other policies which
cause headaches for list manangers) need to be excluded from Internet
mailing lists.

For the lists that I manage, if I get a useless NDR or worse, a
misdirected one, or a bad autoresponder from a site, I will send a
complaint to the postmaster at that site.  If I don't get a satisfactory
response, I will remove all subscribers from that site from all of the
lists that I manage.  I send a message to those subscribers explaining
that their ISPs email system behaves in an Internet unfriendly way
and that if they want to participate in Internet discussion groups they
should select an ISP that takes standards seriousely and operates a mail
system that is consistent with the spirit of cooperation.

Personally, I would like to see someone (not me) maintain a list
or separate lists of sites which

  (1) Produce useless/misleading NDRs
  (2) Send NDRs to the wrong addresses (Reply-To or header From instead of
      envelope from)
  (3) Allow or encourage bad autoresponders

Something like RBL style lists would be very helpful, and then different
mailing list managers could simply decide what they want to do about such
sites.  But the mechanism isn't that important.  Everyone here knows of
a handful of sites that cause list managers headaches.  If someone
maintained a resource of such sites would be avoid some headaches and
apply some collective presure on those sites to clean up their acts.

On Sat, 21 Aug 1999, Ken Bourbeau wrote:

> Date: Sat, 21 Aug 1999 20:52:26 -0400
> From: Ken Bourbeau <bourbeau @
 worldpath .
> To: Postmaster <Postmaster @
 msn .
> Cc: list-managers @
 GreatCircle .
> Subject: Re: Nondeliverable mail
 MSN .
> I am listowner of the mailinglist mckeefan-digest @
 btechnet .
> Please advise me how I'm supposed to remove a subscriber from
> my list when your mail system fails to identify the address that is
> bouncing. This is a common problem with subscriptions from your
> service.
> I'll be forced to disapprove all subscription requests from MSN if this can
> not be resolved. I know many other list managers who feel the same way.
> I'm sure MSN customers will not be pleased if they are refused subscriptions
> because their ISP doesn't provide proper information.
> At 04:47 AM 8/19/99 -0700, you wrote:
> >------Transcript of session unavailable-------
> >Received: from - by with
> Microsoft SMTPSVC;
> >	Thu, 19 Aug 1999 01:34:00 -0700

Jeffrey Goldberg                +44 (0)1234 750 111 x 2826
 Cranfield Computer Centre      FAX         751 814
 J .
 Goldberg @
 Cranfield .
 ac .
Relativism is the triumph of authority over truth, convention over justice.

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