Great Circle Associates List-Managers
(March 2000)

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Subject: Re: Unauthorized archiving and presentation of mailing list by remarq
From: Tim Wentz <twentz @ mc . net>
Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2000 22:28:14 -0600
To: list-managers @ GreatCircle . COM
In-reply-to: <20000309140210 . A13152 @ gsp . org>
References: <20000309075412 . A9102 @ gsp . org> <Pine . BSI . 3 . 91 . 1000309103114 . 18182T-100000 @ ivan . iecc . com> <20000309140210 . A13152 @ gsp . org>


I'm new to the list-managers list, but I can tell you what our list went through a few weeks ago.

Our list was alerted to remarq's tactics a few weeks ago when one of our s*bscribers found a new message board on remarq that delivered the same messages she was getting from our list.

What we found was: whenever anyone s*bscribes to remarq's "message board" for your list, their system sends a s*bscribe command to your list. All of the messages are archived from the moment the first remarq s*bscription comes through and they maintain a s*bscriber list gleaned from the posts.

From the moment we realized what was happening we locked down our list, changing the config files to require admin approval of s*bscribe requests so that we could prevent remarq from receiving any more posts.

My wife sent a list of complaints to remarq's support staff and they removed the archives and our mailing list from their site within 24 - 36 hours.

Once we were off remarq's site, we went back to normal operations.

Tim Wentz
twentz @
mc .

Here's what was sent to remarq.

Your company has chosen to advertise and make available to your
subscribers the Unschooling List.  While I appreciate the additional
publicity for my list, you should be aware that you are violating
several of the Unschooling Lists written policies by doing so.  Please
discontinue this practice immediately by removing all archives from any
records you may have, destroying the list of names and addresses of
subscribers you have collected and removing our name from your boards.

My list of complaints to date is as follows:

remarq has chosen to archive our list against our written policy, and
make it available and even cross reference my list with many other
lists.  We have a strong 'no archives' policy in place and have for 5
years.  This is completely and totally unacceptable.  Allowing our
illegal collected archives and cross posting them to subscribers of
other lists is not only a massive invasion of privacy - but also
highly  illegal as we have young children disccussing personal matters
here and you are not only allowing access by the general public but
displaying their private e-mail addresses too.

remarq jeopardizes our privacy by making a list of all active list
members available to anyone who joins the list, including
spammers who may join for 5 minutes and then leave  This violate
written policy in my Welcome Message and in my own config files.

remarq subscribers have access to other people's private ADMIN
reminders, messages, even unsubscribed people's requests to be
subscribed!  I can't privately communicate or scold one remarq
subscriber without all the others knowing.

remarq does not allow me to communicate with a person wanting to join
our community until after they are allowed in.  I, as a list
owner,  need to be able to be sure all applicants are aware of our
purposeand our rules.  As we have children on our list, their security
and privacy are of the utmost imporatnce to me.

remarq s*ubscribers don't get the lists Welcome Message when they join,
so they are unaware of our posting guidellines.

remarq s*ubscribers seem to have between 5-10% of their daily mail
bounced back to me as undeliverable (*very* poor service!)

remarq didn't have the common courtesy to ask the list owners about our
being included in their 'service' - or to disclose their policies,
they just snatched us up  Rather than being polite and letting a list
'opt-in' you are insisting that a list 'opt-out' after the damage to
privacy has already been done.

remarq's privacy disclosure statement basically says you shouldn't
expect  privacy on the internet and that it isn't their problem to
provide it.  Well sirs, I assure you we had at least some privacy before
you began archiving and cross posting my list in a public forum.

I have required all new subscriptions to be approved, and unsubbed all
existing remarq subscribers.  Of course, as they have not unsubbed from
remarq, they still have unlimited access to not only the illegally
collected UL archives, but also the illegally collected address book.

Again, I am requesting that all posts, all records and all mention of
the Unschooling List please be immediately removed from your site and
all affiliated sites.

I expect written confirmation of my request by the close of business
Tuesday, Feb. 22, 2000.
Tim Wentz        Since athletes are tested for steroids, should
twentz @
mc .
net    quiz show contestants be tested for Ginko Biloba?

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