Great Circle Associates List-Managers
(March 2000)

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Subject: Re: Mail Lists on RemarQ
From: "Alan S. Harrell" <poptexas @ operamail . com>
Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2000 09:35:50 -0600
To: list-managers-digest @ greatcircle . com
In-reply-to: <38D7D3A2 . 9DDBD1F8 @ remarq . com>

On 21 Mar 2000, at 11:55, Eric Leach wrote:

> A) Mail lists have been added to our searchable index and our
> directory, so people are able to find them in the same way they
> find Usenet newsgroups or custom groups. We obtained our ?list of
> lists? exclusively from Stephanie daSilva's Publicly Accessible
> Mailing Lists. If your list is not on PAML and you would like to
> have us include your list please email mail_lists @
 remarq .
 com .
> can visit our mail list suggestion page
> and enter your mail list
> information directly into our form to suggest a new list or update
> an existing list. If your list is on PAML and you do not want us to
> include your list please send email to mail_lists @
 remarq .
 com .

Herein belies a profound ignorance on your part in the basic
differences of the USENET newsgroup forum and the mailing list forum.
You are attempting to view them both from the same philosophy and
this just cannot be accepted by the owners of mailing lists.

USENET newsgroups are impersonal vehicles where third party archiving
and indexing and other servers do not intrude on any individual's
rights.  Mailing lists are *owned* by individuals that put both their
time and/or money into the efforts involved in maintaining these
forums for their subscribers.  Hence, by indexing the fruits of
another's labors, you are stealing from the owners.

> B) Mail lists are designated as "subscription required" and RemarQ
> performs only the client end function of a mail list, leaving the
> subscription approval process in the hands of the list owner. To
> access a mail list users have to subscribe to the list. Only
> registered users with valid email addresses are able to subscribe
> to a list. RemarQ simplifies the subscription process by creating a
> unique email address for the user and then sending a subscribe
> email to the list on their behalf. The user cannot view list
> content until we receive confirmation from the list owner that the
> user is successfully subscribed.
> C) RemarQ does not archive mail lists. Once a user is successfully
> subscribed, they are able to read discussions from the date of
> their subscription approval. If the user is unsubscribed from the
> list they are not allowed to see any messages in the list from that
> point forward.
> RemarQ simplifies unsubscribing for users by placing an
> "unsubscribe" button in the user interface.

List owners do_NOT_want you involved in the administration of their
mailing lists.  A third party can ONLY involve themselves in the
administration of mailing list when they have the express permission
of the listowner.

> E) Users who are subscribed to a list can post messages to that
> list via RemarQ. RemarQ will send messages to the list on the
> user's behalf. The user's email address will appear with their
> messages, so they have an identity in the list and so people can
> respond directly to them.

No, they may not.  No list owner of any experience would ever allow
this, nor any other form of administration unless as stated
previously, prior permission was granted.  Had you been on this list
before, you would have noted that many of the administrators here
have placed filters blocking your requests and others are just
deleting upon receipt.  Rather than doing your users any favors, you
are doing them a grave disservice by misleading them into thinking
they are able to administer to their mailing lists.

> F) RemarQ does not publish the member list of any mail list. Based
> on the response of list owners, clicking the member tab in mail
> lists now surfaces a confidentiality message. Email addresses of
> list members appear only if a subscribed member of a list clicks
> the sender?s name in the header of a message. This functions
> exactly as if the user had subscribed through a mail client.

We are not convinced.  RemarQ's actions are highly distrustful and
suspect.  No site's Privacy Statements can be believed when that site
has banner ads of third party sponsors.  The privacy of the users
shall always take a back seat to the desires of paying sponsors.  Any
other view can only be considered Internet naivete.

> 3)
> We believe that making it possible to read and participate in email
> lists via the RemarQ interface has 4 main user benefits:

Arrogance on your part.  The responsibility to the subscriber rests
solely with the listowner and not RemarQ or any other third party.
Your "beliefs" are without foundation.

> 4) In implementing support for mail lists we have consulted with
> Alan Schwartz (author of Mailing Lists published by O'Reilly) and
> Stephanie da Silva (owner of PAML). Our intention is to create a
> community that is both convenient for users and respectful of list
> owners. Consequently, we are always looking for feedback from list
> members and owners alike. Please send us any suggestions that might
> help us improve our service to the mail list community to mail
> lists @
 remarq .
 com .

Neither Alan Schwartz nor Stephanie da Silva owns my lists and they
have absolutely no say on how I conduct my lists.  In point of fact,
if this is what Schwartz is truly recommending to you, and we have
our doubts, then his credibility has dropped considerably.  And as
concerns the PAML site, it would not surprise me that this opinion
was bought.

Instead of lecturing us, stop and listen to us.  In order for RemarQ
to properly provide mailing list services to their users, they MUST
first obtain in writing, express permission from the owners of the
mailing lists.  You cannot take information from public announcement
sites such as PAML for your purposes.  The listowner listed their
lists with these announcement services for their own purposes and did
not do so with RemarQ's benefits in mind.  Assumptions to the
contrary cannot be allowed.

Your actions have been no less than thievery.  You are stealing from
the listowners that which they have built from their own hard work
and often, as in my case, their own money.  RemarQ should offer to
remunerate any listowner to which damages have been incurred.

RemarQ is becoming a site held in great revulsion by many of the most
influential netizens of our Internet.  In my position, I often have
the need and opportunity to recommend USENET WWW gateway sites to my
subscribers and I have made it my crusade in the past few months to
steer all of them away from RemarQ.

We strongly recommend that RemarQ heed our advice.

Alan S. Harrell
Administrator @
 ASHLists .

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