Great Circle Associates List-Managers
(May 2000)

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Subject: Re: Confirmation Required
From: "Bernie Cosell" <bernie @ fantasyfarm . com>
Organization: Fantasy Farm Fibers
Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 11:07:33 -0400
To: list-managers @ GreatCircle . COM
In-reply-to: <p04310103b5395b1cdc69 @ [209 . 239 . 169 . 197]>
References: <Pine . BSI . 4 . 10 . 10005052112050 . 29349-100000 @ castro . queernet . org>

On 5 May 2000, at 22:20, Chuq Von Rospach wrote:

> At 9:12 PM -0700 5/5/2000, Roger B.A. Klorese wrote:
> >And in addition, it's more like "If you can't change a tire, you don't get
> >a license."
> Some of us prefer to build tires that are easier to change. Or won't go flat.

This is disingenuous.  The 'easy tires' existed for a long time and were 
the first approach used [confirmations are relatively new] and were 
*replaced* by what almost everyone agrees are 'better' tires...  *YOU'RE* 
the one trying to turn the clock back to the good-old-days when folk 
could almost trust what came in via email and pretending that the 
realities that gave rise to most all lists requiring a confirmation-to-
subscribe aren't there [or won't affect YOUR users or YOUR lists].

> And I really don't understand why some people on this list are so 
> afraid of building tires that are easier to change. If folks didn't 
> work to make things easier, we'd still be doing all of this on Vaxen, 
> using gopher, and the internet would have 40 people on it.

Feh.  The problem is that you're not building a tire that's easier to 
change, you're building one that is *broken*.

A better analogy, IMO, than your 'tire' would be to contemplate building 
a mail client that automatically 'opens' attachments --- I'm sure those 
'customers' of yours, if they can't figure out how to click on a confirm 
link, will be utterly baffled by "Attachment yourmom.jpg saved ...." [I 
know that our customers are --- we get tech support calls about this ALL 
the time]. Maybe if you just had your mail client auto-open the 
attachment it'd make life so EASY for them and they woudln't be tempted 
to sign on with a competitor who might have an easier-to-use mail 
client... good idea huh?

> And unlike some of you, I can't simply tell my customers and clients 
> "do it my way or go somewhere else" -- because they will.

You're in a messy situation... as I said in my previous note, you're 
stuck with a political/business problem and so life is hard...  I'm still 
not convinced that your "indulge their cluelessness" approach is the 
right/best path, but hey, you're playing the game with your own money.  
Guess it's just too bad that third-parties might have to end up paying a 
price [because of spoofing/hacking] for the way you've chosen to cosset 
your users...  


Bernie Cosell                     Fantasy Farm Fibers
mailto:bernie @
 fantasyfarm .
 com     Pearisburg, VA
    -->  Too many people, too few sheep  <--          

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