Great Circle Associates List-Managers
(July 2002)

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Subject: Re: Please prune this list!
From: J C Lawrence <claw @ kanga . nu>
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 22:44:29 -0700
To: "Roger B.A. Klorese" <rogerk @ queernet . org>
Cc: Thomas Gramstad <thomas @ ifi . uio . no>, list-managers <list-managers @ greatcircle . com>
In-reply-to: Message from "Roger B.A. Klorese" <rogerk @ queernet . org> of "Thu, 04 Jul 2002 20:01:08 PDT." <3D250BF4 . 6020502 @ queernet . org>
References: <Pine . GSO . 4 . 44 . 0207050354550 . 9765-100000 @ stjorn . ifi . uio . no> <22440 . 1025836984 @ kanga . nu> <3D250BF4 . 6020502 @ queernet . org>

On Thu, 04 Jul 2002 20:01:08 -0700 
Roger B A Klorese <Roger> wrote:
> J C Lawrence wrote:

>> Outlook is the obvious first discard.

> Actually Outlook Express, at any rate, does a better job these days
> with standards than Eudora does.

Possible -- I haven't looked at Eudora in detail in some time.  My main
complaints against Outlook (as distinct from Exchange) are:

  -- abuse of quoted-printable
  -- abuse of base64 encoding
  -- abuse of the multi-part MIME forms
  -- utterly broken attribution format
  -- inane honoring of Sender: header over From:
  -- active encouragement of top posting

Happily there are third party tools to fix some of Outlook's silliness:

>> Eudora, outside of the Professional edition STILL doesn't properly
>> handle attributions.

> Eudora doesn't have a "professional edition."  There are thre modes --
> lite, sponsored, and full -- and they don't handle attributions at all
> differently.

There is a product which identifies itself as Eudora Pro.  At the
attribution level it is recognisable due to the fact that unlike base
Eudora on a group reply it will attribute to the From: rather than the
inane "you".

>> Pegasus seems to do a reasonable job from a standards PoV in that it
>> properly attributes, quotes, emits proper MIME, etc

> If by "properly" quoting you mean using the prefixes our ASCII
> dinosaur tools used, maybe it's time for us to understand that
> "properly" isn't so proper any more, and what Outlook and AOL do is
> what far more people expect.

Proper quoting consists of:

  -- quote formatting that preserves the sense and flow of multiply
  nested and interspersed quotes along with their attributions
  -- text reflowing to reasonable margins 
  -- creation of a specific and accurate attribution
  -- lack of encouragement of top posting due to quote formatting and
  -- use of formatting in general which is amenable to processing and
  reply by both legacy and current systems.

Note that these are functional definitions.  Standard quote prefixing
etc happens to satisfy them, but its not the only possible satisfaction.
AOL's before and after quote markers are particularly broken, especially
for processing of multiple quotation levels.

>> and in general is a reasonable netizen.

> On the other hand, it's incredibly inconsistent with other Windows
> programs.

I can't comment there -- I haven't used a Microsoft product in heat for
11 years now.

J C Lawrence                
---------(*)                Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas. 
claw @
 kanga .
 nu               He lived as a devil, eh?  Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live.

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