Great Circle Associates List-Managers
(July 2002)

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Subject: Re: On client defaults and list configurations
From: Brent Chapman <Brent @ GreatCircle . COM>
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 14:25:44 +1000
To: JC Dill <inet-list @ vo . cnchost . com>, list-managers <list-managers @ GreatCircle . COM>
In-reply-to: <5 . 0 . 0 . 25 . 2 . 20020705101436 . 03c50550 @ pop3 . vo . cnchost . com>
References: <Message from "Roger B.A. Klorese" <rogerk @ queernet . org> <3D25336D . 4080107 @ queernet . org> <Pine . GSO . 4 . 44 . 0207050354550 . 9765-100000 @ stjorn . ifi . uio . no> <22440 . 1025836984 @ kanga . nu> <3D250BF4 . 6020502 @ queernet . org> <24019 . 1025847869 @ kanga . nu> <3D25336D . 4080107 @ queernet . org> <5 . 0 . 0 . 25 . 2 . 20020705065434 . 0392cb60 @ pop3 . vo . cnchost . com> <5 . 0 . 0 . 25 . 2 . 20020705101436 . 03c50550 @ pop3 . vo . cnchost . com>

At 10:27 AM -0700 7/5/02, JC Dill wrote:
On 09:58 AM 7/5/02, Roger B.A. Klorese wrote:
>JC Dill wrote:
>> 2)  While you complain about the effects using MS mail clients has on
>> your mailing lists, I can equally complain about what I firmly believe
>> is the antiquated and useless practice of setting up a DISCUSSION LIST
>> with Reply-To to the author, and not the list.  It leads to posts that
>> are sent to dozens of individuals.  Just as lazy MS mail client users
>> start typing their reply where their client drops the cursor (at the
>> top, resulting in top posting), lazy list users such as most people on
>> this list select "reply to all" and then don't bother adjusting the ever
>> increasing list of names that the reply goes to.  Both types of users
>> justify their actions by saying that since the software sets-up their
>> reply this way, it must be OK.  Well, I think it's pretty damn lazy to
>> send a reply to the list, and to every other address that happens to be
>> in the list headers, just because that's how the software most easily
>> lets you reply back to the discussion list.  And I really detest the
>> duplicate messages this causes ME to receive.  IMHO, this is worse than
>> top-posting, with top-posting at least I only get one message.
>It's the job of a decent MLM to deal with this.  Mj2 can; all others should.

Tthis list runs on mj2, so why is it that THIS list is the ONLY list where I have this problem?

Mj2 could insert a Reply-To: header. We choose not to, for philosophical reasons. You obviously disagree with those reasons. OK, so noted. Next topic.

This is a list run by supposedly sophisticated and experienced list management,

Experienced, yes. Sophisticated, debatable. Gives much of a damn any more, very debatable.

on supposedly the latest up-to-date list management software,

Who said that? I installed mj2 last year primarily so that I could more easily run multiple email domains on a single machine. I needed to consolidate my server infrastructure down to a single machine that I could stick in a friend's basement (thanks, Simon!) before moving to Australia for 18 months. GreatCircle and all the lists it hosts essentially run on auto-pilot. I'm sorry that doesn't meet with your satisfaction.

If you want to suggest to us how to configure mj2 to solve your particular problem, we'll be happy to take a look at it. Otherwise, it's going to wait until either MCB or I have time to go wade through the MJ2 documentation to figure it out (on the one hand, Mj2 at least _has_ documentation, which mj1 never did, though it's often complex and impenetrable; on the other hand, mj1 was much simpler, and I knew the guts of it, so I didn't personally _need_ the documentation). We're both pretty busy, and List-Managers isn't much of a priority for us at the moment, so it will probably be a long wait.

and with a subscriber list of supposedly email-savvy users. Yet the multiple emails (and bounces) continue unabated. There exists both the technical and social ability to "solve" this problem, yet neither tool has been properly implemented on this list.

JC, let me make it crystal clear: if you can tell us how to configure Mj2 to strip out the "Errors-To:" headers that your mail relay is adding, let us know and we'll do it. Otherwise, you're just going to have to put up with the consequences of your relay's behavior until we have time to figure it out ourselves (which, unfortunately, ain't likely to be soon).


Brent Chapman <brent @
greatcircle .

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