Great Circle Associates List-Managers
(January 1999)

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Subject: Re: Yet another virus alert
From: Ivan Pope <ivan @ netnames . com>
Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 18:07:30 +0100
To: "Ronald F. Guilmette" <rfg @ monkeys . com>
Cc: List-Managers @ GreatCircle . COM
In-reply-to: <22300 . 917465821 @ monkeys . com>
References: Your message of Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:18:17 +0100. <v04003a20b2d337bed0a0 @ [195 . 40 . 150 . 140]>

Oh, spare me from the Zealots.

This is a bit boring, but I have to respond to Mr Guilmette:
I said:
>>We were put on the Paul Vixie black list system and had all traffic from
>>our mailservers blocked into the US by a US ISP that used the list as a
>>reference. This had a major effect on our service, as the ISP was the
>>supplier into the US for our ISP.
>>What was our crime? Someone used one of our client addresses as a _return_
>>address on a piece of spam.

And Mr Guilmette replied (edited for brevity):

>Nor do the MAPS RBL folks EVER put anyone onto the RBL without trying, re-
>peatedly if necessary, to contact them ...
>The truth, in the case of Netnames.Com, seems to be that Mr. Pope was, either
>knowingly or unknowingly, hosting one or more so-called ``spammer drop box''
>E-mail accounts, and he was (apparently) refusing to take any action to
>prevent the relevant spammer from making an illicit profit via that E-mail
>drop-box ...

Well, maybe I was hosting a 'spammer drop-box'. I certainly wouldn't know
about it. I certainly wasn't contacted by anyone about it. I don't really
see that it is a concern of anyone else what email is sent to my clients.
Note, it's not the outgoing mail that we're talking about, but a _return
address_. Nothing illegal was occuring and one mans spam is another mans
morning reading. Do you try to stop the USP posting to Direct Mail users?

>(b) he and his company were,
>apparently, making a profit, indirectly, from the spammer and his/her
>spamming in this case, specifically via the fees that they were charging
>the spammer for hosting the relevant drop-box account.

I find this quite amusing coming from someone whose business relies on the
existence of so called Spammers. So who is making a profit from the
Spammers? So why is this little advert on the end of every email you send
out, Mr Guilmette:

>-- Ron Guilmette, Roseville, California ---------- E-Scrub Technologies, Inc.
>-- Deadbolt(tm) Personal E-Mail Filter demo:
>-- Wpoison (web harvester poisoning) - demo:

>In short, Mr. Pope doth protest too much.  It now appears that his state-
>ment that ``Someone used one of our client addresses as a _return_ address
>on a piece of spam'' may not in fact have conveyed a complete picture of
>what really happened.

It is absolutely correct.

>He did however express his clear displeasure at having been called to task,
>and/or in some way held accountable for his actions (or lack thereof).
>I quote:

>>I felt we had no choice but to accept. However, I generally find
>>fundamentalism of any stripe to be unpleasant, and I don't see that I
>>should be forced to accept the arbitary standards of any private individual.
>Translation:  I'm not happy that there is someone out there who is going to
>act to prevent _me_ from getting _my_ piece of the spamming pie too.

I have nothing to do with Spamming. You, on the other hand, have a company
that earns money from it.

Basically, Mr Guilmette, you are the sort of plonker that gives the
Internet a bad name. I have over thirty thousand happy customers. I have
been working with the Internet commercially for ten years. I have been
there and done that.

Vixie's RBL is an attempt to impose arbitary standards on the Internet by
force and it should be resisted.

Of course, if there was no spam, you would be out of business, but I wouldn't.

Ivan Pope

Ivan Pope		  ivan @
 netnames .

180-182 Tottenham Court Road London W1P 9LE UK
+44 171 291 3900          +44 171 291 3939 Fax

It's not about building a better mousetrap, it's about redefining the mouse.

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